so I found it interesting and checked it out. the protocol is all well and good but the problem is social. I’m simply not going to send people my delta chat Id and ask them to message me there instead if they have delta chat installed. I had the same problem with session messenger.
when I meet someone irl I’m trading phone numbers. not asking if they have app X installed.
this might be useful for open source projects where you can use ur delta chat id instead of ur email. but it’s not something I would use unless it’s a requirement to join some community I wanted to.
the problem signal solves by tieing accounts to your phone number is contact discovery. thanks to user IDs you no longer have to share your phone number with people u want to chat with, and can only share your user id
plus signal guarantees the metadata is encrypted. is the same true for delta chat?
Did anyone tell the WhatsApp users?
How can we tell them if we aren’t in Whatsapp?
Try meeting more people.
Frankly it’s the first time I hear about Delta chat
I get that WhatsApp is not a platform to use if you care about your privacy, but WTF is “Delta Chat” and why would I switch to it rather than say Signal?
I agree that Signal is nice, but I think the point here is that Delta Chat is decentralized
Imo it’s already difficult enough to convince friends and family to use Signal. Delta Chat would be even more difficult to pull off.
How is it different? In my experience it’s easier as they’ve already heard of email.
The difference is signal has millions of users and most people have already maybe heard of it.
The other difference is that promoting more and more obscure, useless shit ruins your credibility for when you’re trying to get them to Lemmy or Signal or Mastodon.
Signal is an absolutely fine product and doesn’t need to be decentralized right now.
As I’ve understood, Delta chat is based on the IMAP protocol and uses the infrastructure of your email provider. Thus, it uses no own server infrastructure, but has the also the downsides of the protocol and some issues with many email providers.
Wikipedia.de - Delta Chat (no English version available yet)
Right, they don’t support the advanced login protocols some providers like outlook require. That was a deal breaker, because deltachat was pretty much the last encrypted messaging service which worked in China.
some issues with many email providers
This turned out to be the deal-breaker for me. GMX kept locking me out of my account because of the DeltaChat messages. They’re (of course) full of cyphertext and to email providers this must look a look like spam.
The open-to-abuse nature of email claims yet another victim.
Because delta chat is using an open protocol (email) and you can run your own servers meaning it is decentralized unlike Signal. Also it is actually anonymous unlike Signal, so you don’t need to give anyone your phone number and people can’t find where you live just by knowing your username.
If you use your email, it’s anonymous but you have to use your email which is almost never anonymous and has your phone number. Also you sometimes have to “Create an app-specific password” that delta chat will use and gain full access to your email account, which is way worse than signal or any other application. And for some accounts, you have to use your real password, and maybe disable the spam protection.
Am I wrong somewhere or is that a really stupid idea?
During onboarding of the app you only choose a name and get a random email address
If you struggle making a new email address, this is not for you.
Which applies to 99% of people making Delta Chat not a viable alternative to WhatsApp.
The Fediverse has the same problem that Linux, and Open Source in general, struggles with. The barriers to entry and network effects work against widespread adoption.
Until technology is packaged in a way that makes it dead simple and/or unavoidable, people won’t make the effort to move en masse.
Our words must be dead simple too.
‘Open source’ is a very ambiguous, confusing, phrase that makes it too easy for anti-libre software to scam.
Because delta chat is using an open protocol (email)
So not an instant messaging protocol but rather a technology that the whole world would do differently if they could go back in time?
Could you be more concrete? In what relevant way do you think it does not work as an instant messenger? Keep in mind that Delta Chat is not a theoretical thing and it works as well as any other messenger.
Regarding SMTP:
SMTP (Simple Mail Transfer Protocol) is a foundational technology for email, but it has some limitations. Here are some ways it could be improved:
- Security: SMTP was designed in a time of less pervasive security threats. It lacks built-in encryption and authentication mechanisms, making it vulnerable to eavesdropping, spoofing, and spam. While extensions like TLS/SSL and authentication methods exist, they are not universally implemented or enforced.
- Efficiency: SMTP is a “chatty” protocol, meaning it involves multiple back-and-forth exchanges between the client and server. This can lead to latency and increased resource consumption, especially for large emails or bulk sending.
- Deliverability: SMTP doesn’t have mechanisms to guarantee email delivery. Emails can get lost, delayed, or filtered as spam. While techniques like SPF, DKIM, and DMARC help, they are not foolproof.
- Features: SMTP is primarily designed for sending emails. It lacks features for managing email content, tracking delivery status, or handling complex email workflows. Possible Improvements:
- Mandatory Encryption: Enforcing TLS/SSL encryption for all SMTP connections would protect email content from interception.
- Stronger Authentication: Implementing more robust authentication mechanisms would prevent spoofing and ensure that emails originate from legitimate senders.
- Enhanced Deliverability: Developing mechanisms to track email delivery, provide feedback on delivery failures, and reduce spam filtering would improve deliverability.
- More Efficient Communication: Exploring alternative protocols or extensions that reduce the “chattiness” of SMTP could improve efficiency.
- Integration with other technologies: Integrating SMTP with other technologies like REST APIs or message queues could enable more complex email workflows and features.
It’s important to note that some of these improvements are already being addressed through extensions and best practices. However, there is still room for improvement in making SMTP a more secure, efficient, and reliable technology.
That said, it looks like Delta Chat doesn’t actually use SMTP, having scanned through the website. Though I’m honestly unsure either way as it was only a scan.Never mind:
Delta Chat doesn’t use its own proprietary protocol. Instead, it cleverly leverages the existing email infrastructure for message delivery. Here’s how it works:
- Core Protocol: IMAP/SMTP - Delta Chat primarily uses the standard Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP) for receiving messages and Simple Mail Transfer Protocol (SMTP) for sending them. These are the same protocols your regular email client uses.
- Encryption: Autocrypt & OpenPGP - To ensure secure and private communication, Delta Chat implements end-to-end encryption using the Autocrypt standard and the OpenPGP standard. This means your messages are encrypted in such a way that only the intended recipient can decrypt and read them.
- Secure Key Exchange: SecureJoin - Delta Chat also utilizes the SecureJoin protocol for secure key exchange. This helps to prevent man-in-the-middle attacks and ensures that only authorized parties can establish secure communication. In essence, Delta Chat works by:
- Sending encrypted messages as emails: When you send a message in Delta Chat, it’s actually sent as an encrypted email to the recipient’s email address.
- Receiving encrypted messages as emails: Delta Chat constantly checks your email inbox for new encrypted emails that are meant for you.
- Decrypting and displaying messages: When a new encrypted email arrives, Delta Chat decrypts it and displays it to you in the chat interface. This approach has several advantages:
- Decentralization: No central server is required to store your messages, making it more resistant to censorship and single points of failure.
- Openness: It leverages existing email infrastructure, making it interoperable with any email provider.
- Security: End-to-end encryption ensures that your messages remain private and secure.
If you’re interested in learning more about the technical details, you can check out the cryptographic analysis of Delta Chat available on the Cryptology ePrint Archive: https://eprint.iacr.org/2024/918
I get that you’re using AI directly related to your point, but it’s still a lot of shitty AI spam.
Use it for your own research, but don’t foist that on us.
PGP is a very curious choice. A quick Google search says a downside of this is that it does not provide “forward secrecy”. From the Wikipedia page on forward secrecy, it prevents things like the following.
If an adversary can steal (or obtain through a court order) this static (long term) signing key, the adversary can masquerade as the server to the client and as the client to the server and implement a classic man-in-the-middle attack.
Thanks for pointing this out. I’m guessing part of this is why so many messengers either create a new protocol or choose XMPP
Yes, I really have t looked into this before. I just vaguely remembered jokes about PGP from a security class a while back, so looked it up. It does look like the encryption scheme used in XMPP does solve this issue.
Wikipedia saves the day again:
OMEMO is an extension to the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP) for multi-client end-to-end encryption developed by Andreas Straub. According to Straub, OMEMO uses the Double Ratchet Algorithm “to provide multi-end to multi-end encryption, allowing messages to be synchronized securely across multiple clients, even if some of them are offline”.[1] The name “OMEMO” is a recursive acronym for “OMEMO Multi-End Message and Object Encryption”. It is an open standard based on the Double Ratchet Algorithm and the Personal Eventing Protocol (PEP, XEP-0163).[2] OMEMO offers future and forward secrecy and deniability with message synchronization and offline delivery.
I asked specifically for relevant issues and you just link general issues with smtp that have no impact on Delta Chat?
SMTP is not secure
Delta Chat sends encrypted messages over it so that’s irrelevant.
SMTP is not efficiency
Your phone can run LLMs, it can send a couple packets. Also this “chattyness” can be seen as an advantage as it is extremely robust and works on any network however inconsistent.
SMTP doesn’t have a way to ensure stuff is delivered
Yeah duh? It’s decentralized. You can’t ensure that the recipient doesn’t take down their server?…
Etc. I feel like I’m wasting my time replying to all these because it seems you didn’t even take the time to read them yourself.
I feel like I’m wasting my time replying to all these because it seems you didn’t even take the time to read them yourself.
I’m here trying to learn about Delta Chat and why you think it’s a good app given the drawbacks of the approach they’ve taken. Over the years there’s been an incredible amount of messengers pop up, 90 million from Google alone and none have opted for SMTP. There’s surely a reason for that. From what I’ve learned, mostly thanks to Gemini, because holy fuck the Delta Chat website feels like something from 20 years ago and is purposely vague, the solution that Delta has gone for is just to add more layers. Again, something that the world has repeatedly opted against. I’m trying to understand why it’s considered a good idea in this case and why so many teams and startups have decided not to use this methodology until now?
Jesus Christ, being curious shouldn’t feel like a chore.
It’s considered a good idea because it runs over omnipresent, already-existent, distributed infrastructure. In other words, for this particular chat app, you don’t even need to create an account. That is at very least an interesting and noteworthy feature.
As a heads up, the person you’re arguing with seems to be using an LLM to generate text.
I would down vote and move on. It’s not a real discussion.
Downvote for what? What part is wrong?
Thank you
So XMPP?
Should definitely be the go-to
you don’t need to give anyone your phone number
You do not need to give your number anymore to use Signal.
You cannot make a Signal account without phone number so that’s not true.
you need a phone number to make an account. but you can chat with others without divulging your phone number
Unregistered users can’t chat, so a number must be divulged to Signal, as OP said.
But we are not obliged to share it with our correspondents.
Unregistered users can’t chat, so it needs a number, as OP said.
Yeah I’d rather not share my identity though. Seems like an odd requirement for a “private” messenger
Private ≠ anonymous.
Signal is not anonymous.
Signal is neither of those
Doesn’t delta use email under the hood, an insecure protocol?
You’re better off using something like Matrix, XMPP, SimpleX or Signal.
Email? So its just encrypted SMS?
Might come down to the metadata, then, like SFTP vs FTPES or GET vs POST.
Sms and email are not remotely the same
I guess so. It’s encrypted data sent over email from what i understand. Tbf i’d rather trust software built with protocols specifically built for secure and private messaging, and email is known to not be that.
The protocol doesn’t really matter when you send encrypted messages over it like Delta Chat. Signal is not private nor decentralized and SimpleX doesn’t have encrypted group chats last time I tried
The protocol doesn’t really matter when you send encrypted messages over it like Delta Chat
Maybe. My comment was based off of what i understood from the website
Signal is not private
Could you elaborate on this? haven’t heard of this point (is it due to the jurisdiction on a 5 eyes country?)
SimpleX doesn’t have encrypted group chats last time I tried
It actually does now. It’s a very solid choice i’d say :)
You need a phone number to sign up which requires identification in most countries.
Also anyone who knows your username can ping where you are at any time: https://gist.github.com/hackermondev/45a3cdfa52246f1d1201c1e8cdef6117
You are confusing privacy with anonymity. You aren’t anonymous because your user is linked to a phone number, but your communications are private due to how their encryption works.
On the location attack: it is a matter of configuration and your location will be as ambiguous as thousands of miles.
Finessing the terms does not stop them demanding a phone number.
Precise language is important if you want to understand and communicate truth. It helps a lot to understand the difference between privacy and anonimity there is a scenario where a person doesn’t care that an adversary knows their id, but does care about the content of their messages. In which case, differentiating tools that provide that particular service requires language to discuss it.
Clearly, they do care about the phone number.
They are right. Terminology is important in this discussion.
Interesting, thanks. I think SimpleX fixes a lot of signal’s issues, but the only problem i have that it is funded by VC and quite new.
They are open source and decentralized and indeed there are already a few forks.
Yup that’s why it seems great :) though i haven’t heard of forks. I think i’ll wait a little more till i switch to it, just to see if it gets itself in hot water. It’s too early to tell
Ah so they are just capturing users currently and will have to make return on investment later? That’s a no from me.
Yeah it’s a shame, though i’m going to wait before switching to it to see if it gets itself into any hot water.
So like matrix?
It’s email, adapted to a chat UI.
Oh that’s good.
I’ve often wondered how could I make my instant messaging less instantaneous, while giving a new app access to my banking emails.
Right? I did try Delta many years ago, and I really recommend using a new email account for it.
You can now also choose to just be assigned a new email account when you start using Delta Chat (only drawback is that you can’t send unencrypted emails with that email account so you can’t use it for anything other than chatting)
Oh, cool. TBH I don’t think that’s a drawback, just customised to the very specific usage. So you get a ___@deltachat.org email or something?
You can choose any chatmail server just like when you sign up for lemmy you can choose which instance you’re gonna have your account on. And you can also run your own instance and allow people to sign up on there.
I’m not going to lie, “chatmail” made me snort 😄
Using mail protocols for chat always seemed like a natural, pragmatic solution to a problem that people have been overthinking for decades.
Back when I tried Delta first, it was a bit janky (can it really be 10+ years ago?), so I’m glad they’ve smoothed out the kinks and getting people onboard more easily.
If you struggle making a new email address, this is not for you.
Yea but not in vc debt so without the incentive to sell out users
What VC money has Matrix taken? Genuinely curious
30 million dollars https://element.io/blog/element-raises-30m-as-matrix-explodes/
You can argue that element is not matrix but you’re fooling yourself. Others even have to look at how element implements stuff instead of following the matrix spec
Good to know, thank you for the link
@amzd@lemmy.world currently I try to get my Employer to the fediverse. He would use TikTok to promote the profession with the help of trainees
You want them to shill to the fewer people here? That sounds bad for both sides.
there’s also session
unfortunately privacy and usability are inversely related. session is private. I loved it. but I had no one to chat with 😃
I had no idea if any of my contacts were on session or not.
